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Late Doors

The Hillsborough verdict

Can't let this momentous decision pass by without comment can we? Dunno about anyone else but for twenty seven years I've watched and listened to all the twists unfold and the slow drip realisations settle as some kind of rubber necking voyeur. Like I've no right to be interested in the terrible struggles the families have had but yet immensely connected through a kind of kindred bond as a normal football fan and establishment sceptic.

Like many other Leeds fan and other club's fans for that matter, I've experienced firsthand the conditions of the Leppings lane end and other ends. I was down the side in 87 gazing at the mass behind the goal thinking how great it must be in there. It was exciting seeing and being in the tightly packed mass of fellow fans united in our love of the club. Occasionally you might get a tad concerned as you were shifted powerlessly amongst the mass, feet off the ground until a barrier or a more solid mass of people fans in front abruptly stopped you and the mass behind you receded a little. It was the same at gigs and you just shrugged it off as an inevitable consequence of what you were doing. Some people would fall, other people would pick them up as the swirl continued. It had to end somewhere and it did, so tragically on that day in Sheffield.

We had a game that day didn't we. I can't remember a thing about the match but I do vividly remember thinking oh yeah I know what's happened there  when news came over later on. That seed of culpability was already planted like an inherent confessional guilt. I hated the police then and I hated the gutter press but it was still inconceivable they were guilty of lying on such a vast audacious level. For all my so called rebellion and establishment antipathy  I fucking believed them, for a while at least. Then stories came out, first hand accounts including a couple of Liverpool fan mates who were there. I think the Guardian ran a story about who ordered the gates opened and I started thinking, yeah so there may have been a few pissed up fans but that was the case at gigs and busy pubs in town, it was the culture of the times but very rarely did that culture end up as anything other than lairy. It was the responsibility of the venue and authorities especially the police to ensure safety under any situation. That was their fucking job I thought and the more and more the denials and blatant cover ups were heard it was absolutely undeniable that the police were guilty of a massive fuck up and subsequent conspiracy to conceal evidence. It was so obvious. Most people knew of smaller examples of it in the magistrates or even crown court so it became totally non surprising as credible accounts and memories of that day emerged to reveal the truth. That documentary, was it Bleasdale with Chris Eccleston and Ricky Tomlinson ?. whatever was a turning point for most but personally I was convinced of the truth before that.

But of course its left wing paranoia isn't it? You commies always imagining things and inventing establishment conspiracies I always got at work. Well goes what folks, the fucking Commies were right as the truth comes trickling out about all sorts of things decades later.

It's the Scouser's victory but we are all benefactors in some way. It isn't even justice, just a revealing of the truth. I hope the families keep up their incredible dignity in the pursuit of justice. Personally I am so proud of the whole club and city even though I've no right to be. Their solidarity and spirit in the way they have battled and overcome a vicious and sustained establishment campaign against them  should be an inspiration to us all .
Heyho

I have always maintained that Hillsbrough was down to a number of factors.

I was in that end in the middle pen in '87 and it was tight to say the least. I'm 6ft+ and was a prop forward back then yet I remember it was so packed I had trouble taking my Julian Cope flying jacket off.

So why was it tight. Well because of the stadium design. Once you were through the turnstiles in that end you could go in any of the pens, so human nature would say that most would head for the middle two pens.

So what are my views about what happened two years later. Well I still do not know why that decision was made to open the gate. That to me was the main factor here. Hoards of fans piling in and heading for the middle. Add to it no way of escape i.e. fencing and the rest is sad history.

I did once get lambasted on another site to suggest that loads of pissed up scousers were pushing their way to the turnstiles. I will change that to loads of excuberant scousers. Just as there were loads of excuberant Leeds fans doing the same 2 years earlier and others in years gone by. the difference - the authorities delayed the 12 noon kick off for half an hour.  Oooh can't do that back then with a 3pm can you - pools check and all that!!! And then THAT decision to open the gates!!!

Thing was the amount of lying and deceit to cover up is unbelievable. Had they come clean back then and said it was a tragic misjudgement then would those suffering families have had 27 years of heart ache. Crazy and disgusting.

Of course this does go further - like putting fences up - FA guilty there?
fartcatcher

The image that will always live with me is the line of police across the middle of the pitch stood there just scratching their arses while people were dying 50m away. The contrast couldn't be greater than at Bradford, when individual W Yorks police officers risked their lives to save fans.

There was something really rotten in the S Yorks Police at the time - maybe there still is. Like a couple of other forces, they considered themselves to be the military wing of the Conservative party. They had been so indoctrinated, that they could only interpret what they saw as a bunch of drunken scousers rioting, and behaved accordingly.

It's a fucking disgrace that it's taken 27 years for this to be publicly acknowledged.
Heyho

fartcatcher wrote:
The image that will always live with me is the line of police across the middle of the pitch stood there just scratching their arses while people were dying 50m away. The contrast couldn't be greater than at Bradford, when individual W Yorks police officers risked their lives to save fans.

There was something really rotten in the S Yorks Police at the time - maybe there still is. Like a couple of other forces, they considered themselves to be the military wing of the Conservative party. They had been so indoctrinated, that they could only interpret what they saw as a bunch of drunken scousers rioting, and behaved accordingly.

It's a fucking disgrace that it's taken 27 years for this to be publicly acknowledged.


And to think only 5 years earlier S Yorks police were getting all hot and bothered at the way their southern counterparts in the Met were handling the miners strike!

I wonder what it was at Hillsbrough - I cannot believe that all the PC Plod brigade would not act, like you say as they did so valiantly at Bradford. Was it a general fear of their commanders and the recriminations should they actually act on their own initiative?
bearing

Heyho wrote:
fartcatcher wrote:
The image that will always live with me is the line of police across the middle of the pitch stood there just scratching their arses while people were dying 50m away. The contrast couldn't be greater than at Bradford, when individual W Yorks police officers risked their lives to save fans.

There was something really rotten in the S Yorks Police at the time - maybe there still is. Like a couple of other forces, they considered themselves to be the military wing of the Conservative party. They had been so indoctrinated, that they could only interpret what they saw as a bunch of drunken scousers rioting, and behaved accordingly.

It's a fucking disgrace that it's taken 27 years for this to be publicly acknowledged.


And to think only 5 years earlier S Yorks police were getting all hot and bothered at the way their southern counterparts in the Met were handling the miners strike!

I wonder what it was at Hillsbrough - I cannot believe that all the PC Plod brigade would not act, like you say as they did so valiantly at Bradford. Was it a general fear of their commanders and the recriminations should they actually act on their own initiative?


Perhaps the inactivity was down to something as simple as the fire being a much more obvious danger.
Heyho

bearing wrote:
Heyho wrote:
fartcatcher wrote:
The image that will always live with me is the line of police across the middle of the pitch stood there just scratching their arses while people were dying 50m away. The contrast couldn't be greater than at Bradford, when individual W Yorks police officers risked their lives to save fans.

There was something really rotten in the S Yorks Police at the time - maybe there still is. Like a couple of other forces, they considered themselves to be the military wing of the Conservative party. They had been so indoctrinated, that they could only interpret what they saw as a bunch of drunken scousers rioting, and behaved accordingly.

It's a fucking disgrace that it's taken 27 years for this to be publicly acknowledged.


And to think only 5 years earlier S Yorks police were getting all hot and bothered at the way their southern counterparts in the Met were handling the miners strike!

I wonder what it was at Hillsbrough - I cannot believe that all the PC Plod brigade would not act, like you say as they did so valiantly at Bradford. Was it a general fear of their commanders and the recriminations should they actually act on their own initiative?


Perhaps the inactivity was down to something as simple as the fire being a much more obvious danger.


Good point Bearing. Given all the lies we will never know the whole truth
Late Doors

But we have heard the truth and the point has got way beyond "exuberant" fans and any possible culpability of that exuberance. The establishment machine has ingrained that imagined culpability into the national conscience as part of their full blown onslaught on their own people.

How, in this world on a knife-edge of race war can we, the West, hold ourselves up onto the moral high ground and declare that we are the way forward with our liberalism and freedoms? How can we do that when our own systems of justice and law enforcement wrongly persecute our own civilians? How can we expound our values of fairness and egalitarianism when the rich and powerful remain free from the consequences of our own laws. When they can continue to deny ordinary people justice while they plunder pensions, systematically abuse children in the most hideous way (oh yes they have), hide their wealth from the nations tax system and erode our individual liberties.  

What faith can we or the rest of the world have in our civilisation when the legal systems are controlled by those very same rich and powerful untouchables. It's still happening. Hillsborough Justice seems to be finally attainable thanks to a remarkable and heroic campaign but while objective media crumbles under government authoritarianism and the justice system becomes more and more distant to ordinary people there is no one to turn to for future injustices. It'll all end in a very bad way but that seems to be what we want.
bearing

Orgrave next...
sheeps

bearing wrote:
Orgrave next...


I was there.
sheeps

bearing wrote:
Orgrave next...


I was there.
bearing

sheeps wrote:
bearing wrote:
Orgrave next...


I was there.


Were you there twice or just the once?
sheeps

Loads.





Fuck offski.
Heyho

This is going to get very very messy now. At the end of the day there's a bloke fighting for his freedom and he is cornered. Will the mud start being slung.

I am sure the (certain) media misreporting and cover up by the authorities is really what should be on trial here. But it is not is it. For me what should be on trial is:

(1) The Sun for contempt of court (or whatever it is)
(2) The FA for allowing a ground of that design coupled with fences to be used for a major sporting event
(3) SY Police for covering up and lying.
Late Doors

Not got a lot of sympathy for the bloke fighting for his freedom to be honest. He fucked up enormously but worse he lied, made other people lie and blamed innocent people for it. If it was just the fucking up I might have a bit of sympathy.

I'd throw in Ken Bates to the list as well. He was the biggest advocater of fences and treating fans that way. Also he is a despicable evil twat which should be enough on its own to prosecute him to oblivion.
Heyho

Late Doors wrote:
Not got a lot of sympathy for the bloke fighting for his freedom to be honest. He fucked up enormously but worse he lied, made other people lie and blamed innocent people for it. If it was just the fucking up I might have a bit of sympathy.

I'd throw in Ken Bates to the list as well. He was the biggest advocater of fences and treating fans that way. Also he is a despicable evil twat which should be enough on its own to prosecute him to oblivion.


At the end of the day poor ground design contributed greatly to this. Aside of the lies as you say LD I still want to know why those gates were really opened.
Late Doors

Hopefully more facts will come out but i suspect it will go on and on in ever more decreasing circles untill dementia kicks in
fartcatcher

Bettinson's the one I'd really like to see go down. He orchestrated the cover up and got promoted on the back of it's success. Not saying Dukinfield doesn't deserve a good kicking, but I think he's been made the fall guy by the police (and politicians) to spare those higher up the food chain.

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