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Late Doors

The Damned United. West Yorkshire playhouse.

The book, the analysis, the film, the dissection, the backlash and now the play. It's certainly a story but one that i find impossible to engage fully with. The book is beautifully written with prose that captures the real essence of a thinking fans connection with the game. How real it is ill never know and what the real real circumstances of Clough's 44 days at Leeds United were probably lie in the memories of only a handful of people each with their own self preservation as priority.

Only time can infuse objectivity onto the youthful adulation of men who define your happiness and represent most of what you hold to be worthwhile. To have that precious conviction challenged is a tough ordeal. I still struggle with it but there is no doubt the life of one Brian Clough makes for an extraordinary story and that he was a true character and a football genius of his time. I loved him as a kid and admire him as a sort of adult now.

The biggest aspect of his departure from elland road is the "what if" element but given that all that can ever be is imagination it shouldn't be a factor in any appraisal. Instead we are left with a few absurdities and a possible insight into the man and the machinations of "golden age" professional football clubs. And of course the merits of first the terrific book, the film which i have yet to see and now the play.

Thursday afternnon in the courtyard theatre for the matinée and it was three quarters full. It began with a narrative by the Peter Taylor character who for me captured most life like their character. He describe Clough's career ending injury and what significance it had on Clough as the man himself listened with his back to the audience arms folded.

I think we all know the story by now and the play was only a partial success. Unlike the book and from what i know of the film you had to have a previous insight into the characters and events to follow and understand it. There was an interchange of time between his Derby and Leeds days. Mannequins represented the players and shadowy dancers tried to represent the football action with very little impact.

Clough's character was nothing like him visually or orally but did capture his forthrightness, belligerence and inspiration very well. The dynamics between him and Taylor were equally warm and hostile as were the relationships between him and the boards of Derby and Leeds but with the emphasis on hostile.

It didnt bring any fresh insight or add anyhthing to the Damned united legacy but an enjoyable hour and a half nonetheless.
Dock

Manufactured Nostalgia for knackerknobs!

"Hmm not fit to run such a great club isn't it, Lorimer, Giles hmm, Sleeping giant of European football wasn't it, cheated in Paris hmm, German referee wasn't it?, Les Cocker magic sponge isn't it, hmm, lovely whit socks with numbers on them wasn't it. Those were the days weren't they, and don't forget little Bobby Collins, Scratching shed hmm, John Charles marvellous, had our ups and downs, oh the famous gallows humour of Leeds fans, pay to watch shit, smile, and roll their eyes at each other's unshakeable fandom and simple-mindedness.....marvellous."

Late Doors

Cheated in Paris, Hmm.

Funny you should mention that

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35873480

Beckenbauer, Zwanziger, Schmidt and Hans are to be investigated for "possible undue payments and contracts to gain an advantage in the 2006 World Cup host selection", while Niersbach and Sandrock will be investigated for a "possible failure to report a breach of the Fifa code of ethics".

Beckenbauer was the head of the World Cup organising committee, which reports allege made a payment to Fifa in return for a financial grant.

He captained West Germany to victory as hosts at the 1974 World Cup and was coach when they next lifted the trophy, in Italy 16 years later.

Manufactured Nostalgia or a slice of History from the greatest sport on the planet
Dock

Late Doors wrote:
Cheated in Paris, Hmm.

Funny you should mention that

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35873480

Beckenbauer, Zwanziger, Schmidt and Hans are to be investigated for "possible undue payments and contracts to gain an advantage in the 2006 World Cup host selection", while Niersbach and Sandrock will be investigated for a "possible failure to report a breach of the Fifa code of ethics".

Beckenbauer was the head of the World Cup organising committee, which reports allege made a payment to Fifa in return for a financial grant.

He captained West Germany to victory as hosts at the 1974 World Cup and was coach when they next lifted the trophy, in Italy 16 years later.

Manufactured Nostalgia or a slice of History from the greatest sport on the planet


A slice of history or somebody being appointed a manager of a football club for forty four days? Was it that important to the rest of football in historical terms? I know that LU fans are delusional enough to think the universe revolves around them and their club but, sorry to break this to you, it doesn't. If a tiny forty four day period from forty two years ago matters to anybody they really need to stop and take stock of themselves and look at where their life is heading (or hasn't headed). The fact that something of this nature was given space in a theatre is, in the final analysis, too daft to laugh at.
smiling badger

Im afraid everyone likes a bit of nostalgia dont they?
Be it through sport and most football fans re-living the glory days of their club or nostalgia from music that you listen to. Ive just been watching Rising Damp. Not just because it is nostalgic to me but also very funny.
So whats the difference to looking back to when a team was pretty good or watching and listening to things from the past. This play was three quarters full on a Thursday afternoon. Lots of Knackernobs bums on seats there, hey.
Dock

smiling badger wrote:
Im afraid everyone likes a bit of nostalgia dont they?
Be it through sport and most football fans re-living the glory days of their club or nostalgia from music that you listen to. Ive just been watching Rising Damp. Not just because it is nostalgic to me but also very funny.
So whats the difference to looking back to when a team was pretty good or watching and listening to things from the past. This play was three quarters full on a Thursday afternoon. Lots of Knackernobs bums on seats there, hey.


So you think an adaptation of a less-than-two-month tenure of a football manager is worth going to watch at a theatre? Sure watch clips of the team from that period, but I don't see how it warrants a theatre production. Anyway, should've expected you to pop up as soon as I dare go against anything LU related. Please fuck off! Is it cos you miss me in the LU section? If you want I'll break my promise and start posting in there again. Or just ban me for not worshipping at the altar of Leeds United if you want. Go on, get a memo into admin. Shit forum anyway, don't know why I came back after my three month sabbatical. After stopping drinking alcohol on December 31st I'm getting some serious clarity, and a part of that is realising what a waste of time Reg is. More life in a tramps vest than in this place, FACT!
smiling badger

Its just my opinion Dock, nothing to do with it being LUFC related. But thats the thing when it comes to opinions and yourself. If someone doesnt have the same as yourself you seem to react aggressively. And im supposed to be the 'precious fucker'.
You can dish out snide, personal remarks but cant take them. If you think that its a waste of time coming on here then fair enough. Plenty of other forums out there with people ready to take your abuse and abuse you back. Then you can do yet another flounce. You jumped up little prick.
Sir Bulldog Craggwood

No need for this for any nastiness boys!

Saw a young lady friend last night (23) who knows nothing about football and less about theatre who went to see this with her dad (who's a Nottingham Forest supporting card-carrying member of the Communist Party and a friend of mine). He loved it obviously because he's a Forest and theatre nut but his daughter said it was a good evening out
Grind

I've just been offered a "match worn" tracky top from the film!

Even I might draw the line at that.........
Grind

Here it is!



Don't worry, I (probably) won't get it as I'm far too busy chasing after genuine matchworn knackerknob shirts to bother with pretend ones...........
Grind

This one's for Dock....

Late Doors

Think id draw the line at one of the film shirts Grind but one of the mannequins from the play would compliment your collection very nicely.

The thing about the play/book/film is that it isnt soley about Clough's 44 days at Leeds although obviously that is central to the story. Its about much more than that though. No one needs me to tell them i dont think but its more about Clough, his motives, methods, battles with authority and his demons and it is an interesting human story at the very least. The Leeds united focus just says that the club's stock is bigger than Derby's or Forest's for that matter in the eyes of the nation. It dont mean shit to me but i guess we will just have to agree to differ on what we find interesting.
Grind

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this on here before, but I bought one of the Nazi footie shirts from "Escape to Victory" almost by accident (on eBay) many, many years ago.

I ended up trading it with someone in East Anglia who knew John Wark and was looking to get it for him (presumably) as an unusual present. There were quite a few Ipswich players who had "footballing" parts in the movie alongside the more higher profile celebrity footballers.

I must admit I was quite pleased to get rid of it as, though it was surprisingly well made for what it was, what it represented made me feel a little uncomfortable.

I think it was swapped for a Harry Kewell shirt too, which seems quite appropriate now.....
Dock

smiling badger wrote:
Its just my opinion Dock, nothing to do with it being LUFC related. But thats the thing when it comes to opinions and yourself. If someone doesnt have the same as yourself you seem to react aggressively. And im supposed to be the 'precious fucker'.
You can dish out snide, personal remarks but cant take them. If you think that its a waste of time coming on here then fair enough. Plenty of other forums out there with people ready to take your abuse and abuse you back. Then you can do yet another flounce. You jumped up little prick.


No. Not true. I will debate things and stand up and be counted when I'm wrong. So why don't you just fuck off! What have you EVER added to this forum apart from the usual "good report LD" in the LU section. It'd be a better forum if wankers like you occasionally contributed something worthwhile instead of sitting back letting a few others do the posting. Jumped up little prick am I? And that's from never having met me you fucking cretin! Shove YOUR forum up YOUR arse. You can enlighten everybody with all those interesting threads you start and contribute to. Cunt!
Heyho

Dock wrote:
smiling badger wrote:
Its just my opinion Dock, nothing to do with it being LUFC related. But thats the thing when it comes to opinions and yourself. If someone doesnt have the same as yourself you seem to react aggressively. And im supposed to be the 'precious fucker'.
You can dish out snide, personal remarks but cant take them. If you think that its a waste of time coming on here then fair enough. Plenty of other forums out there with people ready to take your abuse and abuse you back. Then you can do yet another flounce. You jumped up little prick.


No. Not true. I will debate things and stand up and be counted when I'm wrong. So why don't you just fuck off! What have you EVER added to this forum apart from the usual "good report LD" in the LU section. It'd be a better forum if wankers like you occasionally contributed something worthwhile instead of sitting back letting a few others do the posting. Jumped up little prick am I? And that's from never having met me you fucking cretin! Shove YOUR forum up YOUR arse. You can enlighten everybody with all those interesting threads you start and contribute to. Cunt!


My word, you aint on starters orders any more Dock.
smiling badger

All this really stems from myself daring to react to you and your anti LUFC bullshit, sorry your endless,boring anti LUFC garbage. Yes, we get it, you're not into it in any way these days. move on..
I agree, i dont add to this forum with the wit and intellect as most others that come here. But thats the thing with this place, people dont judge and are here for harmless banter. I've made a few good mates here and met a few too. Had Cd's sent to me, helped people to get tickets for games, programmes given to me for my son. We all  put money into buy you a laptop when times were hard for you. Decent people in general thats what im getting at. But i dared to stand up to your anti Leeds and also said something harmless about horse racing and ended up on the end of your snide bile. I know that your bollocks gets on the nerves of others on here for a fact and that others have left because of you.  Im going to be one of those that will have to call it a day on here because of you and your childish outbursts. Enough is enough for me.
No, i havent met you but have sussed you out enough to know that you are one jumped up little prick. So over to you to keep on posting your ever so meaningless anti Leeds crap.
Oh, and get yourself a drink or something and chill the fuck out.
Dock

smiling badger wrote:
All this really stems from myself daring to react to you and your anti LUFC bullshit, sorry your endless,boring anti LUFC garbage. Yes, we get it, you're not into it in any way these days. move on..
I agree, i dont add to this forum with the wit and intellect as most others that come here. But thats the thing with this place, people dont judge and are here for harmless banter. I've made a few good mates here and met a few too. Had Cd's sent to me, helped people to get tickets for games, programmes given to me for my son. We all  put money into buy you a laptop when times were hard for you. Decent people in general thats what im getting at. But i dared to stand up to your anti Leeds and also said something harmless about horse racing and ended up on the end of your snide bile. I know that your bollocks gets on the nerves of others on here for a fact and that others have left because of you.  Im going to be one of those that will have to call it a day on here because of you and your childish outbursts. Enough is enough for me.
No, i havent met you but have sussed you out enough to know that you are one jumped up little prick. So over to you to keep on posting your ever so meaningless anti Leeds crap.
Oh, and get yourself a drink or something and chill the fuck out.


Don't go Badge. Stay. I've gone now after this post. It'll be Dock-Free from here on in. I've been getting bored with this place for ages (I did leave it for a few months but made the mistake of coming back). I said ages ago I wouldn't post in the LU section and haven't. As for you and those who have left because they can't stand their team being slagged then fuck them and fuck you. Poor fucking them and poor fucking you. My heart bleeds for them. This isn't a flounce. You'll be happy to know I've fucked off for good. Have a blast kid! The shadow I've unknowingly cast (which I thank you for alerting me to) will now begone and it'll be a lovely sunny forum for you all. Enjoy!
Sir Bulldog Craggwood

El Classico was good tonight
Grind

Sir Bulldog Craggwood wrote:
El Classico was good tonight


The football one?

I was going to watch it later, but my father-in-law blabbed the scoreline just now, the git.

We might need a roll call to see who still posts on here.

Oh well. Bang goes my insider tips for the National.
Sir Bulldog Craggwood

Grind wrote:
Sir Bulldog Craggwood wrote:
El Classico was good tonight


The football one?

I was going to watch it later, but my father-in-law blabbed the scoreline just now, the git.

We might need a roll call to see who still posts on here.

Oh well. Bang goes my insider tips for the National.



That's what I thought - totally unnecessary

And I would miss either - I can't stand seeing folks getting personal for a difference in opinion

It is a bit like slagging someone's religion or politics and identity laughing at poor old Leeds United

Like both lads and wish it wouldn't come to this but the typed word often nurses grudges and misunderstanding that could be quickly sorted out in person with a free and frank exchange of views
Grind

Just got back from the pub. I fuuucking luuurve the lot of yers, yer bastids!

* Or something like that - I did only have three poncey Italian lagers at an even worse Italian chain restaurant. *

** They're called chain restaurants for a reason. **

Come on lads, bury the hatchet.

* Not in each other., if at all possible. *
Late Doors

It was only a thread about a chuffing play. Jeez, saw one last Wednesday that reflected imperialism and the colonisation of Ireland. Was going to put a post up about it but if silly old Leeds Ununited can incite such hostility i probably shouldn't.

Yep,sad but it happens, as always when people leave it's a tiny bit sad especially when no new people join and existing ones don't post. Dunno what we can do about that. I blame bearing of course. For the record im still posting and will miss Dock and Badger equally if they dont reconsider.
Grind

Do we miss Bearing though?

I miss his rabbit.
Frazier Cranium

Late Doors wrote:
It was only a thread about a chuffing play. Jeez, saw one last Wednesday that reflected imperialism and the colonisation of Ireland. Was going to put a post up about it but if silly old Leeds Ununited can incite such hostility i probably shouldn't.

Yep,sad but it happens, as always when people leave it's a tiny bit sad especially when no new people join and existing ones don't post. Dunno what we can do about that. I blame bearing of course. For the record im still posting and will miss Dock and Badger equally if they dont reconsider.


Would just like to add that your review was quite exceptional, LD.

A real shame to see two friends (of mine, probably not of each other) having such an unseemly spat.

I'd like to confirm that I did not leave because of anyone's comments, especially Dock's anti Leeds stuff (because I decided to ignore it all )

Hope you're all well.  Peace.

Ciao!
Butts

Loved it! Took my old man who's been stricken with Alzheimer's poor sod. He loved it too, especially the Syd Owen character (who he knew well in real life). It helped him delve into the long-term memory banks and stories about Syd, Maurice Lindley and Les Cocker came spilling out - he was offered a contract as a goalie but had to do National Service, something he's always been sanguine about.

Anyway, about the play and, contrary to the utter bollocks above - IT IS NOT ABOUT LUFC!! Derby County is more prominent in the play and I don't hear THEM claiming it as a work about THEM.

Unlike the awful film, it is the fictionalised account of the workings of a man's ego. his relationships and the high profile circumstances he found himself in - Icarus with football stats.

As such, I thought it was top notch. I was pleased the central character didn't try and do a Mike Yarwood and just let some of the subtler vocal and physical mannerisms emerge. The script was bang on as Clough's compexities surfaced.

My overwhelming memory of the book is how the reader arrives at the conclusion that Clough and Revie are very alike. Here, that central message is rammed down the throat a bit, but in 85 minutes some short cuts were inevitable. Funny as hell half time scene with the good cop/ bad cop Taylor/ Clough routine.

The talent of David Peace is that he rooted his book during an incendiary period which is simply the canvass to explore the universal themes of resentment, ego, ambition and, yes....love. It has little - if anything  - to do with 44 days, nostalgia or the actual events - they were just the catalyst for him to unearth his work of genius. After watching the play, I was really proud of the club and its heritage - Manny Cussins emerges as the decent man we all know he was. What a legacy Peace and Red Ladder have left us with.
Heyho

Butts wrote:
Manny Cussins emerges as the decent man we all know he was.


I may (will) beg to differ. The politest thing to say about him was that he was a typical and ruthless business man and that is how he made his fortune.

Anyway moving on from that I have talked with OC about the book. We are of the opinion that what Peace failed to do was to talk to my old man about events. Not sure he would have talked like as he still is as loyal as the majority of the ex players about the club. But there are a few things depicted that were more poetic licence than actual fact and to be honest the actual fact might have been more interesting.

One example - in the film the company secretary (aka my old man) is seen going on the beach in Spain to approach Clough. In reality (well from my memories) that was done on a cold wet night on a service station on the M1.
Frazier Cranium

Heyho wrote:
Butts wrote:
Manny Cussins emerges as the decent man we all know he was.


I may (will) beg to differ. The politest thing to say about him was that he was a typical and ruthless business man and that is how he made his fortune.

Anyway moving on from that I have talked with OC about the book. We are of the opinion that what Peace failed to do was to talk to my old man about events. Not sure he would have talked like as he still is as loyal as the majority of the ex players about the club. But there are a few things depicted that were more poetic licence than actual fact and to be honest the actual fact might have been more interesting.

One example - in the film the company secretary (aka my old man) is seen going on the beach in Spain to approach Clough. In reality (well from my memories) that was done on a cold wet night on a service station on the M1.


I think we spoke more about the Elland Road History book, H, than The Damned United

As I've repeated many times, DP had nothing to do with the film adaptation of his book.  The book's brilliant imo, the film is lousy, it's mean-spirited and error-rstrewn, with the exception of the caricature portrayals of main characters, by Michael Sheen, Jim Broadbent and Colm Meanie.

The play is for me excellent in its own right as well, because it is much more faithful to the book and its spirit.
Late Doors

Y'see boys, no one needs to "leave" the forum. All you have to do is  pop in occasionally with  interesting, intelligent things to say like Butts or Codge or simply just to say hello.

Hope the "Utter Bollocks above" Butts does not relate to my original post because I think we have already established that it was "quite exceptional"  (thanks Codge, that means a lot coming from you, unless you were taking the piss of course)
Heyho

[quote="Frazier Cranium:248473]I think we spoke more about the Elland Road History book, H, than The Damned United [/quote]

Are you off again Codge!!!

I suppose one of the issues is that the selling of the book (and this wasn't of the authors doing I feel) was almost a semi biographical account of events yet the film, as films do, lends itself more to poetic licence.
Butts

Late Doors wrote:


Hope the "Utter Bollocks above" Butts does not relate to my original post because I think we have already established that it was "quite exceptional"  (thanks Codge, that means a lot coming from you, unless you were taking the piss of course)


Not at all it was the bollocks that came immediately after.
Frazier Cranium

LD - why the chuff would i take the piss?  Your review is spot on, just like most of those you write.

Heyho - I don't remember you & I talking about David Peace & your dad, that's what I meant

Seems to be an unwritten law that films adapted from books 'have' to be very different (just for the sake of it).  I disagree, certainly in this case... the film is, at best, a decent comedy drama.  It SHOULD have been a modern day classiic in the way This Sporting Life is, book AND film.
Late Doors

 Dunno, guess i'm not very secure or summat
Sir Bulldog Craggwood

https://youtu.be/1sONfxPCTU0

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