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Dock

Jeremy

No, not the ace song by the popular stateside beat combo Pearl Jam. But the re-elected leader of the Labour Party. His May Day speech this year was one of the most inspirational things I have watched/ heard in years.

I fundamentally believe that he is a decent human being. I think the rest of the safe centrist PLP are a fucking disgrace and their vilification of him will hit them in the face with all the bad karma possible.

I, unlike The Corb, was a Vote Leaver in the referendum and I say that as a proud Socialist. But I think he is interested in discourse and debating the real issues that are affecting the British public. Rich and poor. Unlike the wanky uninformed out-of-touch middle class so-called Labour supporters who branded all Brexiters as Little Englanders and racists, I think Jezza understands people's frustrations and will act accordingly to stand for the people of Britain. I can't remember in recent history hearing such articulate and honest slating of the current health, housing, and social care crisis in the UK. His demeanour and aversion to shit-slinging like those in the BBC and the PLP has been something I have admired greatly throughout recent times and I wish him the very best. That is all.
smiling badger

I think that I've said before in another thread about him that he's the only politician that I have actually sat back and thought that I can really agree with on many things and relate to. I have very little understanding of politics and very little care of politics either. But this fella really does give me more interest in it than any other politician has done. It's a shame the way that he is treated by his own party. Out of touch, middle class, walkers as Dock, says.  Power To The People and all that..
Dock

Forgot to add re out-of-touch knobbers who classed all Brexit voters as Little Englanders and Racists. They also thought us thick enough that there should be a second referendum because we were not in full charge of our mental faculties. It wasn't just about immigration. It was about having a more accountable government. Stupid Condescending Fuckers!
fartcatcher

Far too principled to be a politician
Dock

fartcatcher wrote:
Far too principled to be a politician


Well put FC.
Late Doors

Well likewise Dock, I got a tad pissed off with Brexiters saying remainers thought they were all racist because they wanted to leave teh EU. And that was the whole problem with the pathetic debate. It all got polarised into extremities, muck slinging and scaremongering. I wanted to remain on grounds of world peace and stability, manufacturing trade and working class terms and conditions but could I fuck find the debate, anywhere.

I will tell you one little anecdotal story though. It concerns my old work just before I left. There's about a dozen engineers commandeer the canteen tables by the telly at break times. The canteen mafia, selfish ignorant dickheads to a man, the sort who would shop their granny for a Saturday morning and rather phone a taxi man 5 miles away than catch one with an Asian driver (I kid you not). It was at the time of big coverage of the Asylum seekers at Calais when Cameron made is disgraceful "Swarms of immigrants" speech. Muck to fucking midden for these aresholes it was. One of them said we should send the Army over to deal with them and that was when I blew. Normally I just laughed it off but y'knows, cos im an augmentative fucker I had to say something along the lines of these people being intelligent desperate people probably fleeing shithouse countries with bent corrupt evil leaders because their very intelligence makes them a threat and liable to be shot. I said we should be welcoming these people with open arms because they are the very people we want not a bunch of work shy bastards taking twice as long as they should be over their breakfast break watching telly instead of working. That led to all sorts of accusations ranging from me being a "Do Gooder" (as if that is a bad thing) to a terrorist sympathiser. One of them said "anyway, when we leave the EU we can fuck 'em all off" to much approval from the rest. I don't know for sure what they voted but I can have a good guess. The point I'm making is that for sure not all Brexiters were racist ignorant morons, maybe even most were well meaning thoughtful proud Brits  but every racist ignorant moron I know (plenty) all either voted leave or mouthed off loudly that that is what they were going to do.

Anyway, we're on our way out, tough, that's democracy and the way it is and we should all just get the fuck on with it. I am actually excited about it now because even remainers can have pride in what we can do in this country.

Jeremy Corbyn probably thinks the same, at least I think he does along with giving ordinary working class people the right to a decent income, a health service and an infrastructure of services, utilities and education that benefits all not just a few executives and privileged share holders. He has been under enormous pressure from all angles and for someone who supposedly isn't fit to lead has overcome it all easily. All labour people should pick up their teddies, get on with it and start doing the job they have been put in to do which is challenging and holding to account this truly horrible government and prepare for the next.
Dock

Many stayers classed all Brexiters as thick. That's a fact. Twitter was full of it LD. That we dare disagree with their political view was unimaginable to them.

My personal stance in all this: Socialist. Pro-European but Anti-European Union. Anti-Uncontrolled Immigration. Pro-Democratically Elected Government.

As for those wankers in your canteen, you have my sympathy.
Late Doors

Twitter is full of pricks who think 140 characters can say it all.
Dock

Late Doors wrote:
Twitter is full of pricks who think 140 characters can say it all.


Good point well made. It's not the place to get a point across. I love the Hashtag games but I'm getting a bit bored of Twitter now. Same old same old.
fartcatcher

I was unfortunate enough to share a railway carriage yesterday with three half-pissed military policemen. Jesus Christ! Some of the racist crap they were coming out with I hadn't heard the like of since the seventies. Particularly about Poles, who they seemed to regard as a legitimate target.

As LD says, probably a small percentage of those voting to leave were racists. However, these guys seemed to think that the vote had somehow legitimised their views.

They were bigger than me so I didn't say anything.
Butts

Dock wrote:
It was about having a more accountable government.


Genuinely nonplussed by that. Please explain.
Dock

Butts wrote:
Dock wrote:
It was about having a more accountable government.


Genuinely nonplussed by that. Please explain.


Basically, what I mean is that if you remove Brussels and EU membership from the equation it leaves accountability for the state of the country soley at the door of number 10 Downing Street and the ruling party. For years politicians on all sides have had used the European Union as an excuse for inactivity on key issues with a shrug of their shoulders, a roll of their eyes, and an exclamation of "Brussels eh!". My point is that the buck will now stop with Westminister. I truly believe that in recent years, after apathy brought about by middle ground politics, the population have become more reinterested in politics and politicians are under more scrutiny to be proactive. Leaving the EU feeds into that. It'll now be a case of no murky cloak of EU legislation to hide behind. Now it'll be: If we vote you in get on with it, if you don't get busy for the greater good, fuck off out and close the door behind you. As the eminent political philosopher Martha Reeves once proclaimed: "Nowhere to run to baby, nowhere to hide."

I'm interested in other people's opinions on this but that's how I see it. Since the announcement of the referendum I've been thoroughly energised by listening and talking to people (real ones, not the media gobshites) about their opinions on why we should stay or leave. Some really interesting points on both sides but for me it was a leave vote.
Late Doors

Aye, i agree with "My point is that the buck will now stop with Westminister." didnt look at that way to be honest

I've never bought into this losing our sovereignty and democracy angle that was banded about during the campaign.

It wasn't Brusslels who wanted to Force Schools to become academies, cut Personal Independent Payments for disabled people, cut tax credits, reform pension tax relief, de regulate Sunday Trading, increase VAT on solar panels, limit freedom of information laws, bring in a Granny flat tax, abandon child poverty monitoring, have a tampon tax, scrub out feminism from schools curriculum, scrap animal welfare , relax the fox hunting ban, ban ten year fixed Tenancy agreements, raise flat rate fixed court fees, restrict legal aid or ban poppers etc etc etc

it was our caring government. Neither was it Brussels who forced the u turn on all those plans and more. It was our own opposition and democratic process. I don't recall Brussels changing our constituent boundaries either or capping benefits. Neither are they forcing Fracking on our countryside or starving the NHS into failure or ignoring tax avoidance or wiping half a million disabled people off social care and all that other good stuff thats happening with austerity.

Talk about democracy and unelected policy dictators. It isn't the EU introducing Grammar schools either. It's an unelected prime minister introducing non manifesto policies that weren't voted for.
Plastic Man

Late Doors wrote:
have a tampon tax


Apart from that, I agree with most, if not all you wrote. (To clarify, I'm not a misogynist, but I'm guessing [and could well be wrong] that sanitary products could not be exempted from VAT, due to the tax being imposed at EU regulation [rather than directive] level, so it had to be implemented in British legislation, rather than being optional).

I agree that some things desperately needed reviewing. What might have been suitable for the original small number of member states does not work well following massive expansion, particulary including the newer, poorer econmies. Unrestricted migration has caused unforeseeen difficulties. The problems in this country are well documented. But what about the countries with net emigration, who are having their long-term economies put at risk?

One of my pet annoyances are the EU directives that are trotted out as being barmy.

Some people must seem to think that limiting the number of hours a worker can be required to work to an average 48 hours a week (though individuals may choose to work longer by opting out) and specifying holiday entitlements are a bad thing.

Apparently rules to force to make manufacturers of small appliances such as vacuum cleaners, toasters, kettles and hair-dryers more efficient is anthema to some, probably those still seething from the restriction of sales of energy inefficient light bulbs. Ever heard of global warning? Yeah - but it's a load of rubbish - we've had loads of cold winters and summers recently? Know much about even the basics of thermodynamics? Well maybe  if you did, you'd better informed as to why we need to try and limit our use of energy.

And grade A idiots like Boris Johnson stating that EU rules mean that “children under eight cannot blow up balloons”. No pal, they're not banned from doing so. It's just suggested that children under eight should not blow up latex balloons without adult supervision, as they have on occasion been the cause of death.
Dock

Late Doors wrote:
Aye, i agree with "My point is that the buck will now stop with Westminister." didnt look at that way to be honest

I've never bought into this losing our sovereignty and democracy angle that was banded about during the campaign.

It wasn't Brusslels who wanted to Force Schools to become academies, cut Personal Independent Payments for disabled people, cut tax credits, reform pension tax relief, de regulate Sunday Trading, increase VAT on solar panels, limit freedom of information laws, bring in a Granny flat tax, abandon child poverty monitoring, have a tampon tax, scrub out feminism from schools curriculum, scrap animal welfare , relax the fox hunting ban, ban ten year fixed Tenancy agreements, raise flat rate fixed court fees, restrict legal aid or ban poppers etc etc etc

it was our caring government. Neither was it Brussels who forced the u turn on all those plans and more. It was our own opposition and democratic process. I don't recall Brussels changing our constituent boundaries either or capping benefits. Neither are they forcing Fracking on our countryside or starving the NHS into failure or ignoring tax avoidance or wiping half a million disabled people off social care and all that other good stuff thats happening with austerity.

Talk about democracy and unelected policy dictators. It isn't the EU introducing Grammar schools either. It's an unelected prime minister introducing non manifesto policies that weren't voted for.


You've totally missed my point LD. I know the enemy is within our own political parties and borders. I'm not scapegoating the EU, but I think if we only have our own house to worry about it declutters who's accountable. If businesses and statutory services can't undercut British workers by bringing in cheaper labor from poorer European countries, then the government will have to give British lads and lasses getting into nursing, for instance, the chance of realistic bursaries whilst they learn. Even domiciliary care staff will get a better deal if their awful employers can't get away with paying fuck all for staff from other countries. The tide is changing re zero hour contracts and shit wages. It will force the hand of government to give people in this country a decent working environment. I think it will help progress the causes of an implementation and policing of a decent minimum wage, and vocational educational opportunities for younger people. People are organising and becoming interested in changing things in their lives. I love Europe and Europeans but the EU doesn't work. If countries are separate their citizens can implement changes for their own good far better than a centralised authority could ever do.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.
Late Doors

No, I got you're point, even recognised it wasn't something I'd thought about but agreed with it. Maybe I should have said. Oh hang on a minute what's this on the first line.

Qoute ---"Aye, i agree with "My point is that the buck will now stop with Westminister." didnt look at that way to be honest"
(For some reason I can't embed a quote)

I was just adding a nuance to the topic about a related matter during the EU non debate. I suppose it's relevant to your point in that our accountability and autonomy was never a compromise because we can and do still make our own rules and policy despite the hidng behind imaginary EU Restrictions. It's just that unlike a lot of EU policy and rules they don't put the well being of the average person let alone a poorer one  as a  priority as PM was hinting at . Will have to have a look at the Tampon tax thing. You may well be right
Butts

[quote="Dock:249486"]
Butts wrote:
Dock wrote:
It was about having a more accountable government.


For years politicians on all sides have had used the European Union as an excuse for inactivity on key issues with a shrug of their shoulders, a roll of their eyes, and an exclamation of "Brussels eh!".


Examples?

If that's your argument I'm still nonplussed why you would willingly jeopardise the economic wellbeing of the country, undermine its social fabric and give oxygen to racists.

How will you know when you've succeeded in getting a more accountable government? What will have to happen?
Dock

[quote="Butts:249512"]
Dock wrote:
Butts wrote:
Dock wrote:
It was about having a more accountable government.


For years politicians on all sides have had used the European Union as an excuse for inactivity on key issues with a shrug of their shoulders, a roll of their eyes, and an exclamation of "Brussels eh!".


Examples?

If that's your argument I'm still nonplussed why you would willingly jeopardise the economic wellbeing of the country, undermine its social fabric and give oxygen to racists.

How will you know when you've succeeded in getting a more accountable government? What will have to happen?


Re Examples. Health and Social Housing. Politicians have used the "our hands are tied" excuse and used mass immigration as a whipping boy for inactivity in dealing with these issues. Once their hands aren't supposedly "tied" and the borders are controlled they wont have anywhere to hide when being asked to deal with these issues.

Re Accountable government. When there is only them left to blame, and not a distant centralised burocracy that is out of touch with what the citizens of separate European countries need. As for undermining the fabric of our society, I think that's being a tad alarmist.
Grind

I don't know how true this might or might not be in practice, but I get the feeling that there is much to be said for having a relatively "weighty" and largely competent and reasonable mass in the political background with a deeper voting base to prevent the excesses of recently elected individual parties swinging wildly from political side to side.

Would that be the main purpose of a European Union type of thing?

Obviously there are career civil servants and the suchlike here in the USA too, but I get the impression that very little gets done here simply due to partisan opposition rather than reasoned consideration and there is nothing sensible lurking in the background to tick things along.

Is the UK the same?
Butts

Dock wrote:



Re Examples. Health and Social Housing.


Seriously? You think 'mass immigration' has had an impact on these sectors?? It's austerity that's prevented house building and NHS under-funding, not the flipping EU. I've never heard anyone say that social house building has been undermined by 'mass immigration'. That's bonkers. And if you can't get a GP's appointment when you want blame the government for cutting spending in real terms, not the Poles (or whoever).

This is also a completely different argument to that of 'accountability', which is what you initially said motivated you to vote Brexit. It's another example of how people voted against something without understanding what they were voting for.
Dock

Butts wrote:
Dock wrote:



Re Examples. Health and Social Housing.


Seriously? You think 'mass immigration' has had an impact on these sectors?? It's austerity that's prevented house building and NHS under-funding, not the flipping EU. I've never heard anyone say that social house building has been undermined by 'mass immigration'. That's bonkers. And if you can't get a GP's appointment when you want blame the government for cutting spending in real terms, not the Poles (or whoever).

This is also a completely different argument to that of 'accountability', which is what you initially said motivated you to vote Brexit. It's another example of how people voted against something without understanding what they were voting for.


What I meant was the lack of social housing. Not building it. More people without work entering the country means less social housing. Anyway I've been totally misunderstood in this thread and as somebody who has voted for something they don't understand I'm too thick to carry on with it. I'll leave it to the experts.

As for your economic stability argument. There is absolutely no test case to back that up. This has never happened before so there are no definites. I think things get lost in translation on here. Anyway, best get back to my colouring book.

And I take comfort in the fact that I've been condescended to by somebody of your Calibre Butts. It takes the sting off it a bit.
Grind

Time will tell to a certain extent - the reporting here suggests that a few of the EU member countries are at best restless, so perhaps the connected institutions were unravelling even without Brexit?

US politics seems much more murky and blindly partisan in general - I know there more than a few idiot MPs in the UK, but I've always felt that they were less beholden to special interests than their "no taxation without representation" colleagues.

Probably a naiive assumption.
Grind

If any of you saw the "Presidential Debate" here last week....

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/ne...=daily&utm_campaign=100316_10
Late Doors

Its all well and good mocking Trump for Pronouncing China as Jighna but Mr Jazzman Coltrane should realise it's Iraq, not Eyerack.
Butts

Dock wrote:
Butts wrote:
Dock wrote:



Re Examples. Health and Social Housing.


Seriously? You think 'mass immigration' has had an impact on these sectors?? It's austerity that's prevented house building and NHS under-funding, not the flipping EU. I've never heard anyone say that social house building has been undermined by 'mass immigration'. That's bonkers. And if you can't get a GP's appointment when you want blame the government for cutting spending in real terms, not the Poles (or whoever).

This is also a completely different argument to that of 'accountability', which is what you initially said motivated you to vote Brexit. It's another example of how people voted against something without understanding what they were voting for.


What I meant was the lack of social housing. Not building it. More people without work entering the country means less social housing. Anyway I've been totally misunderstood in this thread and as somebody who has voted for something they don't understand I'm too thick to carry on with it. I'll leave it to the experts.

As for your economic stability argument. There is absolutely no test case to back that up. This has never happened before so there are no definites. I think things get lost in translation on here. Anyway, best get back to my colouring book.

And I take comfort in the fact that I've been condescended to by somebody of your Calibre Butts. It takes the sting off it a bit.


I hope you get what you want mate, but I'm still none the wiser as it how you'll know if you have
Late Doors

Yes, indeed i was a bit rash citing the abolishing of the tampon tax a non EU decision. The goverment eventuality reduced it to 5% but had to campaign to get sanitary products zero rated as non luxury items. Goes to prove however that there is a democratic process within the EU. Then again it backs up Dock's point of ministers hiding behind EU rules claiming their hands are tied (see, i do  understand the point )

Anyway, back on to Jeremy. Do you think his influence and threat has anything to do with this sudden shift to center right that's oozing out from Birmingham right now ?
Dock

Late Doors wrote:
Yes, indeed i was a bit rash citing the abolishing of the tampon tax a non EU decision. The goverment eventuality reduced it to 5% but had to campaign to get sanitary products zero rated as non luxury items. Goes to prove however that there is a democratic process within the EU. Then again it backs up Dock's point of ministers hiding behind EU rules claiming their hands are tied (see, i do  understand the point )

Anyway, back on to Jeremy. Do you think his influence and threat has anything to do with this sudden shift to center right that's oozing out from Birmingham right now ?


Frankly, yes. I think they are running scared.
Dock

So then, all bets are off! (For now). Personally I don't think any MP is going to commit political suicide by voting against this. They are far too interested in self preservation to go against the referendum. I don't think it'll fly. Interesting situation though.
Plastic Man

Dock wrote:
So then, all bets are off! (For now). Personally I don't think any MP is going to commit political suicide by voting against this. They are far too interested in self preservation to go against the referendum. I don't think it'll fly. Interesting situation though.


I came across an interesting breakdown of the voting in the referendum.
https://www.facebook.com/48AndBey...8401938013304/?type=3&theater

Voted leave: 17,410,742
Voted remain: 16,141,241
Didn't vote: 12,949,258
Can't vote: 18,604,470

(Those who 'can't vote' include British Expats, 16-17-year-olds, EU migrants living in the UK [the latter can vote on everything else apart from General Elections but not the EU Referendum]).

I make that at total of 46,501,241 who could vote. In perecentage terms of those who were eligible to vote:

Voted leave: 37.4%
Voted remain: 34.7%
Didn't vote: 27.8%

Discounting those who couldn't vote, as they couldn't vote in the general election either, I wonder how many MPs would chance their arm on garnering the support of those who didn't vote in the referendum (and probably wouldn't normally vote in a general election anyway) but regret their decision now?

It's difficult to accurately predict as the voting in the referendum wasn't necessarily according to traditional political affiliation, whereas voting in the general election more usually is. Furthermore, how many people who voted to leave in the referendum, but don't normally vote in the general election, would be motivated to vote again?

I thought that once a declaration to leave was made, there was no going back, with only a two year period to negotiate exit deals. Apparently there is a school of thought that if a declaration to leave has been made, that it can be reversed if the exit terms are not satisfactory.

Does anyone really know what is going on?
Grind

Theresa May?
Dock

I think the whole process was very rushed. From the announcement of the referendum there should have been at least a year for structured public forums to take place across the nation. Instead we got bombarded with scaremongering and very loose rhetoric from politicians on both sides and a short period of time to weigh things up.But one thing I believe strongly out of all of it is that employers were/are using the free movement of people from other countries to drive down wages and the enforcement of the minimum wage is non-existent. Same goes for those poor sods in Greece whose pensions have been frittered away by the dickheads running their government. Where's the EU watchdog that makes sure its citizens aren't left up shit creek like many Greeks have been?

Next Monday I will be 43 years old. In my entire life not one person from Wesminister or Brussels has explained to me why being in the EU is of benefit to me. If I'd been told in my formative teens at school about what it meant to be a citizen of the EU and the opportunities it held I may have dived right into being a European. But what do I get instead? A few half-arsed French lessons at age 11 when my European brothers and sisters were being taught English at half that age.

Being in the EU hasn't stopped worker exploitation, it certainly hasn't stabilised the cost of living in this country, my wage goes far less than it did five years ago. And for the last few years we have a new phenomenon called: Food Banks. Who's protecting our poor and our vulnerable and disabled? Nobody it seems. Where are their rights? Membership of The EU hasn't made our own government accountable to the rest of their EU partners as to why many lower paid working British citizens are struggling to get by and enjoy a decent standard of living. Or that people on disability benefits are vilified and treated appallingly by the state. Where's the EU protection for them?

I personally think the whole EU thing is a big con that protects business, banks, and 'The Markets'*. It keeps people stupid by a lack of clarity on what it actually DOES as a political entity.

* Re 'The Markets'. Anybody else know how stocks etc work? No? Me neither, because its bullshit to blind ordinary people. Their ball their rules. We ain't welcome at the top table.

The Brexit process may just have gone to a stewards enquiry but I believe it will still happen.
fartcatcher

Nobody seemed to have any plan for Brexit. Least of all the Brexiteers. May doesn't have a plan even now. Her statement that we will still invoke article 50 in March proves it. She's just pretending that the law lords decision hasn't happened.

For the next four years arguments about Brexit governance and legislation will dominate our political landscape. It's a huge chunk of incremental work that no-one had planned for. There will be no time for anything else.
Late Doors

What's the logic of it going to appeal though? Three judges have made a ruling. Are they wrong? Has new evidence arrived? Was existing evidence corrupt? Seems to be happening more and more these days. Dont like the verdict? Get a new one as long as you can pay for it or be powerful enough to demand it. How can May be so confident if will get overturned? What does she know? Might as well Skip the first session and go straight to the appeal infuture.
fartcatcher

I find the continual braying of the press very worrying now. Anyone who, in their view, obstructs Brexit is 'The Enemy' or ' A Traitor'.

This is scary stuff. There are plenty of right-wing nutters around like the guy who shot Jo Cox, who will believe this is sufficient justification to take 'action'.

May and Rudd haven't helped by refusing to accept the decision of the judges.

Things will get worse before they get better.

We're dooooooomed!
Sir Bulldog Craggwood

His years of cosying up to the IRA PLO and Hamas as well as taking money to speak horseshit on Russia Today and Press TV about this country put him in the cunt column for me - sorry about that - and I really do believe he's an intellectual lightweight. 34 years in the HoC and not even a junior minister job - if by some miracle he was ever elected he'd soon be found out
Dock

I like different opinions. As the pimp said to the whore: "Keep em' comin'"
Late Doors

Me too but i dont think Not being an intellectual heavyweight excludes you from becoming a leader. Neither does being an intellectual heavyweight make you a good leader. And "Being found out" hasnt done Boris any harm, yet.

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