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Frazier Cranium

Hunting The Hooligans

I co-writ this with Mike Layton, the head of Operation Red Card which was created in 1987 to combat Birmingham's 'Zulu Warriors'.  Had some good input from folks on here when writing it, very much appreciated.

Anyway, it's out and it's featured quite heavily in todays' Birmingham Post and tomorrow's Sunday Mercury.  http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/how-birminghams-feared-zulu-warriors-9672826
Grind

Cool - the book, not the Zulu Warriors - I'll see if I can snag a copy somehow.
Frazier Cranium

Today's instalment, mainly featuring the Leeds Riot which is not pretty reading as the poor lad died as a consequence.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/n...-recall-how-zulu-warriors-9684447
fartcatcher

Followed the link from Facebook - really comprehensive write up! Hope it sells well.
A few of the pubs frequented by the Zulu Warriors also had some really good bands on midweek - so I went in them quite often.

Different crowd at weekends though. Anywhere on the Coventry Road up to Yardley was dodgy. Some of the players were nearly as bad as the fans. Robert Hopkins was mental. Made Jody Morris seem like Joan of Arc.
Cutsyke

I think you've got to seriously question the powers of detection of a man who comes out with a statement like this.

"I don’t think any Leeds fans got over that fence."

http://i150.photobucket.com/album.../bcfc_photos/leeds110519857-1.jpg

Seats to halfway line empty before first pitch invasion, full of Leeds who were on the pitch after.

https://footballviolence.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/brumleeds8531.jpg

You'd think a half decent copper might notice that.


That said, those hooligan books, you've read one, you've read them all. I've thought for quite a while the one that would interest me is the one from a cop's perspective. It's just a shame and a bit off putting when the first bit you read has obvious holes in it.
Frazier Cranium

I see what you mean - I didn't do the interviews so it would be difficult for me to pull them up on their recollections even if wrong, which that part is obviously.  

That comment is from one officer, Cuts, probably one of the few people who hasn't watched it on YouTube since.

no we'll probably never see eye to eye but who cares eh, most people disagree with me
Cutsyke

I'd edited my post, probably as you were replying, lest it sounded argumentative. I reread it and thought it sounded like I was blaming you. I wasn't.

The point I was badly making was what else is there in the book that's inaccurate - as told by coppers with an agenda of their own?

I don't know any Leeds fans who contemplated getting the game abandoned if we weren't winning. I do know of lots of Leeds fans who predicted carnage at the fixture the day the schedule came out. Then again, I don't know every Leeds fan who went to the game.


The Trendies is a new gang to me.

Unless the match was going to go down as The Game Of Two Kettles I'm thinking the kettle was thrown from the Leeds end, nearly hit Eddie Gray and I think it was the bloke dressed as Rupert Bear. Which would be pretty hard to mistake, surely?

I'll buy it as this is the story I would genuinely like to read; the cooper's view regardless of the hooligans they targeted. I'm just a bit dissapointed that there's so many inaccuracies in that one excerpt - that I'm aware of. It will leave me wondering what else is inacurate that I'm not aware of.  

Again, not a criticism of you rather the PD telling their side but top marks for getting a book out on the subject. I was calling for one as far back as Terrace Retro which predates OMJs. I'm really amazed it hasn't been done before.

Right, I suppose I should order the bloody thing.
Frazier Cranium

Thing is, the things you're saying are wrong are one copper's memory, so even though he as you says has got it wrong, it's his opinion and not a statement of fact by the author.

And 'The Trendies' was used at the time but I never remember it either, not about Leeds.  TBF I don't recall 'VYT' being used either but I know it existed .  

So, as far as I know, any mistakes are just the faulty memories of individuals rather than inaccuracies from me or Mike Layton.  That's not to say I have not made any mistakes cos no doubt I have, and it's not to say that every time one is pointed out it's like a kick in the nads, but the errors so far aren't claimed to be fact, they're 'conjecture' (?).  The interviews are an important part of the book but it's Mike Layton's recollections that really matter, and he had most of the paperwork and photo evidence to work with.

Totally agree a book from the law's perspective woulf be a better book than most hooligan ones, and this landed at my door sort of and I was excited to get involved.  

Not sure but I think it was a requirement to have a bad tash if you were in the police in the 80s.
Cutsyke

I think we're both in agreement that it's the cop providing the information rather than the writer been at fault.
I think Trendy might have been a term like Dressers or Flickheads and what have you rather than the name of an actual gang.

You can't buy it here yet but there's a site - if you Google the title- claiming to offer a free download. That's not on.
Late Doors

Never read a hooligan book at all, tell a lie, I read the Chelsea one by Jon King, enjoyed it, good writing and socially relevant but I don’t think it was simply a hooly book. I went all over with Leeds in the 70's and 80s. Mainly on the coach but often on the train if it was suitable. I have to have a smile when people wax lyrically about the times especially pre flop head days when quite simply everywhere except a few "soft grounds" (Norwich, Ipswich , West Brom etc) Leeds fans did fuck all and everywhere was scary especially if you were outnumbered. Same with so called mobs coming up here. No one bought any except Man U , Newcastle, Sunderland, Forest when they came up and Liverpool. Spurs, Everton etc bought fuck all and even West Ham and Chelsea were sparse but very ugly. I may have been in the wrong places never being a proper Hooly myself but that’s how I saw it. Ill never believe ever what a copper said about those days either, at football or away. I know for absolute certainty what lying horrible bastards they were. I know they have a hard job etc but fuck me talk about a law unto themselves.

I went on the Coach to Brum and to this day I tell people what I honestly saw. And that was apart from the pitch invasion and the poor lad Fuck all happened.

No offence Codge and im sure it’s a good book but judging from this thread ill give it a miss
Frazier Cranium

Please yourself mate, judging a book by a forum thread is an odd reason but it's a free country.

This book is about a specific operation set up to fight the Zulu Warriors.  I had a couple of unpleasant encounters with West Midlands Police myself but that doesn't stop me knowing what I know and seeing that not all hooligan prosecutions were corrupt or 'lacking'.
Late Doors

Its just the whole genre Codge, it doent interest me, to me it was a thing that was just happening, like say sniffing glue and to analyse it gives it some kind of major significance beyond what it was. All i saw was lads having a laugh, sometimes a scary adrenelain laugh. Im not Judging the book on the basis of what has been written here im judging wether i would enjoy it in some way. Im picking up on a copper lying about what he saw as well. Not only does that not interest me it will make me mad as well. I wish it well for you though, really and if it is up to your usual standard it will go well.
Frazier Cranium

Do me a favour LD, he's not bloody lying he's just dim, he has no bearing on the whole Operation at all.  The interview in the article is from last year, the events he is trying and failing to accurately remember are 28 years ago.

The MP called Leeds fans Trendies, he isn't lying either, he's just wrong.
Frazier Cranium

Thanks Cuts for pointing out that 'free download'.  It is definitely illegal and the publishers are now on the case.
Dock

Re Trendies. I grew up in Wakefield and we always referred to the lads with the good clobber as 'Trendies'. I'm a bit younger than you lot, but maybe it was a regional/ age difference in the usage of terms? As for the police the irony for me is their mis-management of a situation was the catalyst for the Taylor report, but have profited from it by rules about how much police are needed and have to be paid for on match days. An overtime bonanza. Their ball their rules.....literally. Fuck the lot of em!
Dock

PS Interesting thread.
Frazier Cranium

It's a shame that in this country st least, it takes a sports disaster of unfathomable trauma to create demands for improvement, yet anyone with the foresight to try and get things changed for the good before a disaster occurs is generally seen as a fusspot nambypamby liberal who should mind their own business.

The police had a lot to do with the Hillsborough Tragedy, and the subsequent cover-up is unforgivable, but the Leeds Riot and the Zulu Warriors' actions weren't in any way caused by the police.

ACAB?  Not for me but each to their own views.  Anyway, this thread seems to be on its last legs.

Re that illegal download of books site - I've been told by another publisher that any links don't seem to work or they lead the downloader to a virus.  Weird thing is, it's a quite impressive site, so why some shitwank would waste time and money on creating it for no apparent good reason is a mystery.
Dock

Frazier Cranium wrote:
It's a shame that in this country st least, it takes a sports disaster of unfathomable trauma to create demands for improvement, yet anyone with the foresight to try and get things changed for the good before a disaster occurs is generally seen as a fusspot nambypamby liberal who should mind their own business.

The police had a lot to do with the Hillsborough Tragedy, and the subsequent cover-up is unforgivable, but the Leeds Riot and the Zulu Warriors' actions weren't in any way caused by the police.

ACAB?  Not for me but each to their own views.  Anyway, this thread seems to be on its last legs.

Re that illegal download of books site - I've been told by another publisher that any links don't seem to work or they lead the downloader to a virus.  Weird thing is, it's a quite impressive site, so why some shitwank would waste time and money on creating it for no apparent good reason is a mystery.


I'm not of the ACAB philosophy totally. I think what I was hinting at there Codge was the overall lack of accountability from the police force and the 'look after our own' closed shop that there seems to be plenty of evidence of. I know some Bobbies are ok. A lad I know (Scouse Neil) worked alongside the police in his job and some of the stories he tells me send me cold with regard to the pack mentality of some coppers.

Re Shitwank. Is that the new Croatian winger LU have signed?
Frazier Cranium

No, that's Wankshit, easy mistake to make.

All Criminals Are Brilliant
Late Doors

I aren't an ACAB lad either, far from it especially these days but jeez the coppers in them days were useless and to me actually caused more agro than they stopped, especially at ER with their cavalry charges into ordinary fans on the way back to town in the Holbeck Playing fields and wading into ordinary people with truncheons and leather  gloved fists. They nicked any innocent fan they got hold of purely for the arrests quota.

The lies they then told in court still rankle today, people's lives almost ruined by them. Absolute arseholes with their indiscriminate attacks supported by a justice system that exaggerates football related incidents and turns them into state treasons. If they applied half the resource and ruthlessness they showed in football arrests to drugs, guns and other proper crime in those days then the country might be a better place now.

In fact the only people who benefited from coppers were the pricks confronting each other who didn't really want to fight anyway and waited for the coppers to come so they could scarper and leave the rest of us to cop it from them.
Frazier Cranium

Anyone with an 'old school' attachment (shit choice of words, sorry) with OMJ knows too well that one not guilty Leeds fan had their life ruined by bent bastards.

Well, maybe not ruined, the only person who can state that as fact is the victim himself, I don't know the full story well enough, but I think you get my gist.
Cutsyke

Glad that turned out to be bogus. I pay for books like I pay for music.
fartcatcher

Interesting thread this!

A few unreliable memories!

I went to my first match at ER in 1966 aged 14 (Villa or Arsenal?). Went with a mate as my parents were neither interested nor concerned. Went in the Lowfields Road stand. I was quite nervous initially, but other than the crushes that were normal then coming in and out of the ground saw nothing scary.

If you were looking for a fight, you went in the Scratching Shed, where fights were as likely to be between rival gangs of Leeds fans as they were with visiting supporters. Policing and stewarding were so low key I don't remember much about them.

I saw little trouble until the early seventies, when our bitter rivalry with Chelsea led to a few confrontations The occasional visits of Rangers and Celtic, both of whose fans appeared to be completely mental, were a bit lively as well.

Things seemed to change round about 1980 - maybe a bit earlier - I was living in Birmingham by then and saw several confrontations between Villa and Birmingham fans.

By that time gangs of fans had become more organised, tribalism had increased and perhaps most significantly, policing had changed.

From being largely onlookers whose mere presence provided a deterrent, the police became more 'proactive'. They developed an obsession with keeping fans apart which led to them becoming a target themselves. On top of this was a change in philosophy which led to a metamorphosis from a peace-keeping force to the military wing of the Conservative party.

Any group of individuals gathered together noisily was seen as a challenge to authority and was dealt with often in a totally inappropriate manner.

For all the reasons above, I stopped going to games for about ten years. Going back (1991?), I noticed a change for the better, but still room for improvement. First game I took my kids to (2001 away to Coventry), it got quite nasty. Neither of them has ever been to a match since. Mind you it was a shit game as well.

Generally policing seems to be pretty good at ER now. Most of the away games I go to, police and stewards seem pretty respectful - oddly enough, the only exception I've encountered recently was at St Andrews, where we were locked in under the stand for an hour after the game.

As for trendies - I've heard the expression before as well. The mod movement died out at the end of the sixties, but there were still lads who liked to dress smartly, quite often in suits. We used to call them trendies.
In the seventies, they morphed into 'baggies'. A look based on the Bay City Rollers (ha!) with brightly coloured tanktops, voluminous oxford bags and platform soles.

Not very practical if you're getting chased by someone!

Happy days huh!
Late Doors

Yep the police and stewards seem pretty respectful at  games these days, a massive change from the days you mentioned. Mind you with  the CTC everywhere these days they don't need to do anything which makes it an utter mystery to me why anybody wants to kick off at football given the absolute certainty you are going to get nicked for it.

What still rankles is the disproportional punishment for football related incidents sometimes miles away from the ground. Can  you imagine what the headlines would be if Rooney got spat on or piss thrown at him at Elland Road. That said if you are still going to carry on at Footy maybe you deserve the extreme sentencing
Frazier Cranium

The spitting/pee throwing was done by bastards who haven't paid to watch though, so it's not a sports-related crime just a social one.  Those bastards will get their comeuppance I hope, the latest gobber is on film isn't he?

Now been told that that illegal download site demands credit card details before giving owt away.
Frazier Cranium

It's all me me me me me.  Live with it or ignore it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02xkh5f#play

4 minutes in-ish, with Martin Kelner

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