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Grind

A puzzle

Unfortunately, I expect Bearing the Gonk to get this immediately (even with the sly modification), but this is quite a cute puzzle.

Well, not if you're a rat..........

1) You have been given a dozen bottles of vino.

2) You have been told that all but one of the bottles contains wine that has been laced with a stealthy poison, which always kills within a day.

3) You are obligated to provide a glass of poison-free wine for an event to be held in, well, exactly 24 hours.

4) The only thing you have at your disposal are four very healthy looking lab rats.

Any ideas that don't involve heading for the nearest offy?
fartcatcher

divide the bottles into 4 groups of 3

pour a bit from each of the groups into a single bowl.

get a rat to drink from each bowl.

one rat will die and therefore you know it is one of three bottles.

pour some of each of those into separate bowls.

get one rat to drink from each bowl.

the rat that drinks from the poisoned wine dies.

or something like that
hic!
Pond Life

Serve and be damned.
Grind

fartcatcher wrote:
divide the bottles into 4 groups of 3

pour a bit from each of the groups into a single bowl.

get a rat to drink from each bowl.

one rat will die and therefore you know it is one of three bottles.

pour some of each of those into separate bowls.

get one rat to drink from each bowl.

the rat that drinks from the poisoned wine dies.

or something like that
hic!


I had a viaduct moment in the setting up of the question - it has now been corrected.   .

If only one battle was poisoned, you'd only need to try one bottle on one rat.

a) If it died, use one of the others.

b) If it lived, use the wine.

Having eleven poisoned bottles is much more interesting!
Grind

A hint - you could actually extend this task to sixteen bottles, with one unpoisoned.

* No viaducts were harmed in the manufacture of this message. *

** Ho hum, maybe I should go shovel some snow....... **
bearing

Re: A puzzle

Grind wrote:
Unfortunately, I expect Bearing the Gonk to get this immediately (even with the sly modification), but this is quite a cute puzzle.

Well, not if you're a rat..........

1) You have been given a dozen bottles of vino.

2) You have been told that all but one of the bottles contains wine that has been laced with a stealthy poison, which always kills within a day.

3) You are obligated to provide a glass of poison-free wine for an event to be held in, well, exactly 24 hours.

4) The only thing you have at your disposal are four very healthy looking lab rats.

Any ideas that don't involve heading for the nearest offy?


Toughy!

If I said to use base 2, would I be warm?
Grind

Re: A puzzle

bearing wrote:
Grind wrote:
Unfortunately, I expect Bearing the Gonk to get this immediately (even with the sly modification), but this is quite a cute puzzle.

Well, not if you're a rat..........

1) You have been given a dozen bottles of vino.

2) You have been told that all but one of the bottles contains wine that has been laced with a stealthy poison, which always kills within a day.

3) You are obligated to provide a glass of poison-free wine for an event to be held in, well, exactly 24 hours.

4) The only thing you have at your disposal are four very healthy looking lab rats.

Any ideas that don't involve heading for the nearest offy?


Toughy!

If I said to use base 2, would I be warm?


I think you'd be boiling.  
bearing

Here goes then

Bottle 1   - Rat 1
Bottle 2   - Rat 2
Bottle 3   - Rat 2 + 1
Bottle 4   - Rat 3
Bottle 5   - Rat 3 + 1
Bottle 6   - Rat 3 + 2
Bottle 7   - Rat 3 + 2 + 1
Bottle 8   - Rat 4
Bottle 9   - Rat 4 + 1
Bottle 10 - Rat 4 + 2
Bottle 11 - Rat 4 + 2 + 1
Bottle 12 - Rat 4 + 3

I think that should cover every eventuality.
Grind

bearing wrote:
Here goes then

Bottle 1   - Rat 1
Bottle 2   - Rat 2
Bottle 3   - Rat 2 + 1
Bottle 4   - Rat 3
Bottle 5   - Rat 3 + 1
Bottle 6   - Rat 3 + 2
Bottle 7   - Rat 3 + 2 + 1
Bottle 8   - Rat 4
Bottle 9   - Rat 4 + 1
Bottle 10 - Rat 4 + 2
Bottle 11 - Rat 4 + 2 + 1
Bottle 12 - Rat 4 + 3

I think that should cover every eventuality.


Yep. I guess the 16 definitely gave it away. Fine boolean sleuthing skills.  

When I heard it was twelve the first time, I thought, "That's a bloody strange number?" and was thrown off the scent for a couple of minutes.

Have I ever put up the indian penny puzzle? That bastard took me three days to work out.  tryyryo.gif
bearing

Grind wrote:
bearing wrote:
Here goes then

Bottle 1   - Rat 1
Bottle 2   - Rat 2
Bottle 3   - Rat 2 + 1
Bottle 4   - Rat 3
Bottle 5   - Rat 3 + 1
Bottle 6   - Rat 3 + 2
Bottle 7   - Rat 3 + 2 + 1
Bottle 8   - Rat 4
Bottle 9   - Rat 4 + 1
Bottle 10 - Rat 4 + 2
Bottle 11 - Rat 4 + 2 + 1
Bottle 12 - Rat 4 + 3

I think that should cover every eventuality.


Yep. I guess the 16 definitely gave it away. Fine boolean sleuthing skills.  

When I heard it was twelve the first time, I thought, "That's a bloody strange number?" and was thrown off the scent for a couple of minutes.

Have I ever put up the indian penny puzzle? That bastard took me three days to work out.  tryyryo.gif


Yes the 16 did help me out a bit.

Don't remember the Indian Penny one, stick it up.
grunt

What if bottle 1 killed rat 1, what then?
bearing

grunt wrote:
What if bottle 1 killed rat 1, what then?


Are you quite mad?
grunt

Is it Blue Nun?
grunt

bearing wrote:
grunt wrote:
What if bottle 1 killed rat 1, what then?


Are you quite mad?


Then rat 1 wouldn't be able to share bottle 3 with rat 2. And you'd have to divide the pizza between 3. Nightmare!
Grind

It would be more blue rat.  

* Lines Grunt up for his next set of experiments. *
bearing

*shoots Grunt*
fartcatcher

I don't understand the answer.  

I've got plenty of bottles of mrs f's dad's rhubarb 2008 if anyone wants to try this out
Grind

fartcatcher wrote:
I don't understand the answer.  

I've got plenty of bottles of mrs f's dad's rhubarb 2008 if anyone wants to try this out


Just in case you meant that........

You use binary arithmetic to work out the safe bottle.

Each bottle is assigned a number and this is converted into base two. As examples, bottle seven converts to bottle 0111 in binary; bottle 10 is 1010.

You then assign each of the four rats to the binary digits and give them each a mixed bowl of wine according to the binary version of the bottle number. Each bottle has a unique rat combination.

As an example, rat two would be given a bowl containing a mixture of bottles 2, 3, 6, 7, 10 and 11.

So, if you see rats one, two and three popping their clogs, rat four is still alive - so bottle 8 is safe.

Nobody makes custard wine?
Plastic Man

As Mr Grunt has alluded to, surely this is not a fool-proof method. Unless a rat receives a single test-dose and it is from the non-poisoned bottle, then you won't be able to tell.

Any rat that has been poisoned will not available to additionally take part in multiple dose testing.  

Also, it is stated that:

2) You have been told that all but one of the bottles contains wine that has been laced with a stealthy poison, which always kills within a day.

Thus you would need to wait a full day to make sure that it wasn't poisoned. In addition:

3) You are obligated to provide a glass of poison-free wine for an event to be held in, well, exactly 24 hours.

As you have only 24 hours to provide an answer, but you must allow a test period of 24 hours for each test dose to make sure that it is not poisonous, none of the animals would be eligible to receive multiple test doses anyway.
Grind

Plastic Man wrote:
As Mr Grunt has alluded to, surely this is not a fool-proof method. Unless a rat receives a single test-dose and it is from the non-poisoned bottle, then you won't be able to tell.

Any rat that has been poisoned will not available to additionally take part in multiple dose testing.  

Also, it is stated that:

2) You have been told that all but one of the bottles contains wine that has been laced with a stealthy poison, which always kills within a day.

Thus you would need to wait a full day to make sure that it wasn't poisoned. In addition:

3) You are obligated to provide a glass of poison-free wine for an event to be held in, well, exactly 24 hours.

As you have only 24 hours to provide an answer, but you must allow a test period of 24 hours for each test dose to make sure that it is not poisonous, none of the animals would be eligible to receive multiple test doses anyway.


Each gets their appropriate mixture at the same time.  

Within 24 hours - i.e. you'll know 24 hours later.

Bearing - explain it to the man!
Plastic Man

Say bottle 1 is not poisoned.

Rat 1 will have tested bottle 1. And will not have been harmed by bottle 1.

But according to the schematic above, rat 1 will have also received at the same time stuff from bottles 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11.

By my reckoning, it wouldn't be pining, it would have passed on. The rat would be no more. It would have ceased to be. It would have expired and gone to meet its maker. It would be late rat. It would be a stiff. Bereft of life, it would be resting in peace. If it hadn't been strapped to the cage roof, it would be pushing up the daisies. It would have run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. It would be an ex-rat.

So how would you tell if rat 1 hadn't been poisoned by bottle 1 if it had received it at the same time as all the other bottles?
bearing

I would like to point out that I've put my table together the wrong way round.

Swap rat for bottle.
Plastic Man

bearing wrote:
I would like to point out that I've put my table together the wrong way round.

Swap rat for bottle.


I'm not sure what you mean. Is it:

Rat 1 - Bottle 1
Rat 2 - Bottle 2
Rat 3 - Bottle 2 + 1
Rat 4 - Bottle 3
Rat 5...

But there's only 4 rats.
bearing

I wrote it out as a Boolean truth table, I'll post a copy of that up in the morning, it'll make more sense.

My brain is aching from the coin puzzle.
Plastic Man

bearing wrote:
I wrote it out as a Boolean truth table, I'll post a copy of that up in the morning, it'll make more sense.

My brain is aching from the coin puzzle.


I can see the logic that you have applied to service your answer.

Unfortunately, the toxicological constraints applied to the puzzle would appear to severely restrict (and perhaps prohibit) the application of Mr Boole's logic to find a solution.

It would probably work if applied to a duff coin puzzle though.
Grind

Feck sticks! I have done a double-viaduct.    

The original question as posed was correct - there is only one poisoned bottle and eleven "clean" ones. The aim should have been simply to find the poisoned bottle.

Heaven knows why I swapped it to being the other way around.

Rat 1 receives a bowl of bottles 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11
Rat 2 receives a bowl of bottles 2, 3, 6, 7, 10 and 11
Rat 3 receives a bowl of bottles 4, 5, 6, 7 and 12
Rat 4 receives a bowl of bottles 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12

So, to locate the poisoned bottle:-

1 - Rat 1 dies
2 - Rat 2 dies
3 - Rats 1 and 2 die
4 - Rat 3 dies
5 - Rats 1 and 3 die
6 - Rats 2 and 3 die
7 - Rats 1, 2 and 3 die
8 - Rat 4 dies
9 - Rats 1 and 4 die
10 - Rats 2 and 4 die
11 - Rats 1, 2 and 4 die
12 - Rats 3 and 4 die

* Drinks all the bottles and goes to naughty step to make sure. *
Grind

I guess that's my quiz-setting credibility totally blown then.

Apologies all round.    

I'm decant, he's decant.....



* Hopes that's the poisoned bottle. *
Grind

Wasn't he in the rat pack?  

Grind

I don't mind Merle Haggard, but, errr, why post this?

Grind

Have you all forgotten I fecked up yet?

* Thought not. *

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